sourcing purest alloys - Can's are actually a good option!

Author: Subject: Aluminum - sourcing purest alloys - Can's are actually a good option! Aluminum - sourcing purest alloys - Can's are actually a good option!


So I've wondered what is the best source of aluminium, hopefully at a reasonable price. I found this wiki that lists the composition of most Al alloys and it has some pretty good analysis of the other metals mixed with aluminium.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminium_alloy

Now the purest form of Al is foil which is alloy 1099 and is 99.9% but I suspect there is a fair amount of Al2O3 on the surface and it would be interesting to see what % in weight the oxide makes up. It is also pricey. Even buying large rolls at a restaurant supply store, it isn't as cheap as buying the value brand (often even less expensive than store brand) at the stores. I've seen them for buy on get one free, so that is when I buy and this usually comes out about 60-70% cheaper than buying a $40-50 roll at a discount restaurant supply store.

Now most cans made in the US and EU have about 97.5% Al, 2-2.25% Mg and .25-.5% Mn. All in all that isn't a bad composition if you want to use this in something like thermite or other pyro uses and the fact that it is either free or that you would only get $.30-.50 per lb makes it even more attractive cost wise. There are also some tricks when it comes to melting the cans to make sure you get as little Al2O3 dross on the top.

Melting cans - after every melt, you should save a portion (maybe 1/2 - 1lb depending on the size of the melt) into an ingot that can be used as a "starter" for the next melt. This ingot, at the next melt, will be heated first until liquid and gotten very hot (1400-1700 is good but well below steel/iron melting point). Then take the cans and press them into the liquid quickly and they should liquify nearly instantly - you will get flames as you do this as the ink and plastic printing/coating burns off. Doing one at a time takes about 2 seconds. Keep heat on high while doing this. As you get more Al built up, you can add more cans at once. It's all a balance of total heat in the mass being great enough to melt the cans immediately upon submerging them. Every 30-40 cans I wait to get temps up high again then start adding more.

It is best to crush cans, stomping on them is best, but also flattening them - bending bottom & top towards middle of can so both ends face up and the flat bottom is the side of the can. These seem to melt much better without oxidizing.

One other way to make this much more efficient is by putting the cans in the fire before adding to melt pot. Even if placed on white hot coals, they don't seem to melt for some time (at least a few minutes) but they heat them to maybe 700-1100F and then they melt instantly when placed in the pot. Just rotate the the heated cans and replace with new cold ones. All of this can be done over a wood fire and even faster with a blower for air near the pot (keeping the edge of the fire cooler can help as the cans can be placed there to warm).

I went from getting maybe 25-50% oxide dross to less than 10% when doing melts. My largest of 50+ lbs I had less than 3lbs of dross for the entire melt and lots of beautiful ingots and some castings.

Now I've heard some members make fun of people for using cans, even mock them, but in some places it's tough to find aluminium of known composition and cans are usually a given. Unknown alloys can vary WIDELY in their content and can have 13 other metals in them!

So if you have no source for Al of known composition, I see no reason why can't can't be a decent source if you need Al for pyro uses. I'm using a table saw with a VERY high tooth count blade to cut the Al into tiny chips (a couple mm in width by about .5mm thickness) and these grind MUCH easier in a ball mill than foil, about 8x faster than foil. I use a vacuum cleaner (bagless vortex type), TOTALLY cleaned before use, to collect chips and it seems to be ideal for this and have zero contamination. The blades last a LONG time and they are just standard stainless blades, easily resharpened with a dremel and sanding disc- then the new blade just chews through 1/3"+ thick pourings, all with a 1/4hp motor. I can't wait to hook up my 2hp motor (legit 2hp continuous duty so serious power) and may add a few blades in parallel to cut wider swaths, though IDK if that is possible or safe.



Come on man, why do you need pure Al? I find no use in it. Purifying it will just waste more money or energy.
I would use it as reducent, as powder, for making wires (i would never use copper), and most for battery.
I plan to use Al garbage (mostly cans) as galvanic cell, aka source of electric energy.
Seems useless for large energy wasters like stoves, boilers, motors.
But nice for small energy wasters like smartphones, watches, smaller lights, and if enough quantity even for laptops.
Although it can't work by itself, once we assemble it into galvanic cell after we buy or make acid or alkaline salt, it can give us free energy. Al is most expensive part of that cell, and luckily it's free from garbage.
I calculated that only half a litre bottle volume is needed to power smartphone for a year if used 24 hours, if HCl is used as electrolyte and Al as cathode. Also tested electric current, it was over 3 A, although i immersed very small part of Al foil in acid. So I would not recommend wasting energy trying to clean such Al, except if somebody has good reason to.

I never liked galvanic cells I see on youtube. They show electrolyte being lemon, potato, some fruit, CuSO4... While they can give some current, it's too weak. Even commercial MnO2 and even Li and Li-ion batteries are weak when compared to Al in acid ones that I discovered. Current generated by their electrolytes is not even comparable to how much can be generated when acid or alkaline electrolyte is used, especially with Al cathode. I only immersed a piece of my hand size of Al, if I immersed same surface area as is in Li or Li ion, current would be enough to power all devices.

Yes, I understand that hydrogen is being evolved at anode, but for testing purposes it's fine. It's easy to make at least.

Energy in Al as galvanic cell cathode comes from 3 electrons and it's reduction potential. It is more energetic than Li. While Li has higher reduction potential, Al has 3 electrons involved while Li only one.

And believe it or not, even if we buy HCl which is actually extremely cheap in my country, 1 L 18% HCl is same price as half a litre of coca-cola, it is cheaper than buying any batteries including Li, Li-ion, MnO2-Zn, Ag, NiCd....
Much cheaper and easy to make!!!

[Edited on 30-3-2018 by RawWork]

Are we talking about the same thing? I was talking about Al, sources, processing and it's use. The reason I posted is a number of times a few members were very negative about using cans as a source of Al, some mentioning the large loss due to oxidation and dross - hence my posting about a good method to melt it.

If you view threads about making Al powder, most seems to suggest using Al foil, which is actually VERY time consuming and relatively expensive costing $4-8/lb for aluminum. While it is the purest, I was showing that if using this for pyro uses, then the 2-2.25% of Mg really isn't much of an issue as it will act similarly to Al in powder form and the Mn at .25-.5% is not worth mentioning IMO.

If someone wanted to make an H2 cell that produced gas at a constant rate, then using Al from cans is a decent choice, melt them and pour into consistent shapes (long solid rods?) so the production would be fairly constant rather than using unmelted cans which causes ALL kinds of problems (the very thin plastic liner/printing label blocks many acids/bases for hours even if at 120-160F but seems better at higher temps.

I have no idea what you are talking about HCl and "cells" for in relation to this. Can you explain what you mean?

I mean Al = free energy. When I think of Al cans or Al generally, first thing that comes to my mind is electric energy. 1st priority why I would use cans. Purity is not important, not even in powder, as it's not needed.
Also melting those cans is not needed if it's being used in small quantity. We can power our smartphone each day by using one square piece of Al cathode and rest of cell with it, every day each. No need to use all Al at once. Can be cut with scizzors really.
Al is worth collecting or picking up from garbage for whatever reason, but especially for use as a source of (electric) energy.
Throwing away Al cans and not using them is stupid for us chemists at least. And since we already buy and have HCl, it's stupid to buy various batteries.

We are talking about Al, it's purity, price, uses, and cans as source of it.

If I wanted pure Al I would use one from wires. There is the purest one.

Thanks for the article, RogueRose! I'm wondering if I could make a few hundred grams of Al melt, heat it up and dissolve some Ni coins in it in order to make sort of a Raney Ni. A few percent Zn or Mg wouldn't hurt in that alloy as I read.

Do you think it would be doable in some sort of Youtube-style amateur furnace heated with a propane/air flame?


edited a typo

[Edited on 30-3-2018 by Pumukli] RawWork


Using cut-up Al cans as a consumable electrode for a primary cell is a great idea !

I may even have a try myself.
------------------------------------------------------------------

I believe that electrical aluminium wire (8000-series) contains iron, manganese, magnesium, chromium and silicon in varying proportins depending upon grade.
Even aluminium foil is not pure aluminium, to allow processing and increased stength.

[Edited on 30-3-2018 by Sulaiman]

CAUTION : Hobby Chemist, not Professional or even Amateur

Kingsun are exported all over the world and different industries with quality first. Our belief is to provide our customers with more and better high value-added products. Let's create a better future together.

Quote: Originally posted by Sulaiman  Using cut-up Al cans as a consumable electrode for a primary cell is a great idea !
There'd be some prep required, of course, to sand off the plastic liner and/or labeling before you could use it for anything. I'd be interested to see a schematic of how such a battery would be built, and the calculations behind how much energy it can provide.


More on the original topic, those are great recommendations for melting cans. I was planning on doing a meltdown this weekend, and I was also going to try NaCl/KCl eutectic as a flux to try cleaning things up. I'll definitely use an ingot as a starter for that melt.

Quote: Originally posted by MrHomeScientist   Quote: Originally posted by Sulaiman  Using cut-up Al cans as a consumable electrode for a primary cell is a great idea !
There'd be some prep required, of course, to sand off the plastic liner and/or labeling before you could use it for anything. I'd be interested to see a schematic of how such a battery would be built, and the calculations behind how much energy it can provide.


More on the original topic, those are great recommendations for melting cans. I was planning on doing a meltdown this weekend, and I was also going to try NaCl/KCl eutectic as a flux to try cleaning things up. I'll definitely use an ingot as a starter for that melt.

I'm interested in this aluminum battery b/c I have about 55ft x 20 inches of this aluminum flashing (supposed to be pretty pure from what I read. That would be much easier to use than cans I would think, no removing plastic coating/labels.

Any links to this battery?


Quote: Originally posted by RogueRose  Any links to this battery?


No, because I am the original discoverer, and discovered it only recently. Video is in progress, tough.

False alarm, everybody.

When working with steel vendors, they must be knowledgeable about the products they supply to your business and all the different steels they sell, their applications and specific properties. They should also have a good idea about products they don’t sell but which are crucial to the industry.

Questions to Ask Steel Vendors

Steel is used widely in modern society by manufacturers of a wide array of products and those who construct buildings, bridges and other infrastructure. Regardless of why a business or organization requires steel, vendors should be able to answer the following questions:

What is steel? 

Steel is an alloy primarily made from iron that contains less than 2 percent carbon, with other elements like manganese, oxygen, phosphorus, silicon and sulfur added to give the steel certain characteristics. It’s also a relatively inexpensive alloy with high tensile strength, which is why it’s widely used.

For what applications is steel used?

Steel has myriad uses, including as a component in automobiles, buildings, home appliances, infrastructure, ships, tools, weaponry and many other modern-day products. Steel is also used in engineering applications and as an important construction material.

How do iron and steel differ? 

While iron occurs naturally in ore form, it’s also the primary element making up steel alloys. The main difference is that steel is stronger than iron, with superior compression and tension properties.

Why isn’t steel classified as a metal? 

One of the most frequently asked questions of steel vendors involves why it’s not considered a metal. This has to do with the fact steel isn’t a pure element but rather an alloy comprised mostly of iron, which is a metal, and carbon, which isn’t a metal.

What properties does steel have? 

Various steels have differing properties depending on the elements within the alloy. But generally, steel:

• Can withstand external forces well, so is durable.
• Conducts both electricity and heat well, which is why it’s used in wiring as well as cooking equipment and utensils
• Has an aesthetically pleasing look, especially when it comes to stainless steels.
• Has good tensile strength.
• Is malleable, so can be shaped easily.
• Resists corrosion due to elements, with stainless steels offering even higher corrosion resistance.

Is steel stronger than titanium? 

While titanium can be alloyed with other metals – including aluminum or vanadium – to make it stronger than many types of low to medium grades of steel, the highest-rated stainless steel grades are stronger than these titanium alloys.

What are the different types of steel? 

Steel is generally categorized into four types: alloy, carbon, stainless and tool steels.

Alloy Steel -These steels are alloyed with other metals in various ratios to make them better for specific applications.

Carbon Steel – These steels contain iron and carbon, with other elements like copper, manganese and silicon to create an alloy.

Stainless Steel – There are many variations on stainless steel, though normally, they’re made up of between 10-20 percent chromium. The primary element in stainless steel alloys, besides iron, is chromium, which makes it much more resistant to rusting; this is especially true for those stainless steel alloys containing at least 11 percent chromium.

Tool Steel – Alloyed at extremely high temperatures, these steels are combined with hard metals, such as vanadium, tungsten, molybdenum and cobalt. Not only are tool steels heat resistant, but also durable, making them ideal for cutting and drilling implements.

What grade of steel is strongest?

The specific grade of steel that’s considered the strongest is in the 400 class of stainless steel, specifically, type 440. The 440 stainless grade is a type of cutlery steel with a higher carbon ratio. The 440 grade retains edges much better when properly heat-treated than other steels.

As one of the hardest stainless steel grades, it’s classified into four subsets. Categorized into 440A, 440B, 440C, and 440F stainless steel, these differ only concerning the amount of carbon they contain. Of these, 440C stainless steel is considered the strongest, comprising between 0.95-1.20 percent carbon. During the annealing process, 440 steel can be easily machined, worked, and manipulated into shape to increase strength further.

What type of steel is used most often? 

The most commonly used and versatile steel grade is also stainless. Type 304 stainless steel contains 18 percent chromium and 8 percent nickel, sometimes referred to as 18/8 steel.

What is stainless steel? 

There’s not just one kind of stainless steel. The term applies to a group of iron-based alloys that contain at least 10.5 percent chromium, making stainless steel so resistant to corrosion. This chromium forms a very thin layer on the steel’s surface to prevent rust and other types of corrosion.

In addition to chromium, carbon content in stainless steels can be no more than 1.2 percent. Stainless steel alloys also contain varying amounts of other elements, such as manganese, molybdenum, nickel, niobium, nitrogen, silicon, and others. These other materials contribute to the properties of specific types of stainless steel.

Will stainless steel rust or otherwise corrode?

Yes, and yes. Though many believe stainless steel won’t rust wrongly, it’s possible under certain conditions for stainless steel to rust, though its chemical makeup helps prevent rusting. Additionally, there are other types of corrosion besides oxidation that makes steel rust.

When stainless steel surfaces are exposed to chemicals or other corrosive substances for too long and aren’t properly cared for, they begin to pit. This pitting affects the performance of a stainless steel surface and its aesthetics.

Featured content:
5 Reasons Why Your Business Needs Aluminum-silicon Alloy-AlSi20, AlSi50？
Alloy vs aluminum | Applications and density of aluminium

Contact us to discuss your requirements of Aluminium Manganese Alloy supplier. Our experienced sales team can help you identify the options that best suit your needs.

How does steel fit into sustainable development? 

All steels are uniquely sustainable and capable of being used and recycled repeatedly. Steel production also requires less energy than producing other types of materials. Further, the steel industry has made great strides toward limiting the pollution it produces. For example, fabricating a ton of steel requires just 40 percent of the energy it took to make in 1960.

General Questions to Ask Steel Vendors

Yet steel knowledge isn’t the only thing to glean from questions posed to steel suppliers. Vendors should also show that they’re trustworthy and honorable when doing business. To ensure that they are these things as well, another set of questions should be asked of steel vendors:

Are there costs beyond what’s quoted? 

It’s important to understand the final cost of materials like steel. Vendors sometimes charge a restocking fee for returns, while others may invoice for delivery or fuel surcharges. It’s important to ask a steel supplier to identify these costs so that the total cost for material is known and can be compared with prices from other vendors.

Does the vendor have liability insurance? 

This is an important aspect of any business, including steel suppliers. If there’s a problem with the steel that leads to other costly expenses, the steel vendor’s policy must cover it. it’s also a good idea to get a copy of their liability insurance certificate.

Does the steel vendor sell directly to customers? 

For distributors, steel vendors mustn’t sell to end users at sharply discounted rates. Some manufacturers will work with a distributor until they’re established, then cut them out to make higher profits. That’s not good for any distributor’s business.

Can the supplier guarantee the sell-through of their products? 

Sometimes the product doesn’t sell, so it’s important to understand a steel vendor’s return policy. A guaranteed sell-through allows a business to return unsold materials for either cash or credit.

What happens if a product doesn’t arrive? 

With COVID and current world events having caused issues with supply chains, this is a very important question to ask steel vendors. A lack of vital materials will strangle a business, so relying on suppliers that don’t deliver isn’t an option. Steel suppliers that offer discounts for a product that doesn’t arrive on time, or who will pay back customers for steel they had to get from another source will help allay the costs of delays or mistakes.

What sort of margin should distributors expect from steel vendors? 

For distributors, it’s important to get a price that gels with the profit their business needs to make in order to grow. For instance, if a steel vendor states that the gross margin should only be 25 percent on the steel they sell, while your business needs a 30 percent margin to stay competitive, this relationship probably won’t work out long term.

What circumstances might affect pricing?

Knowing what might make steel vendors change their pricing structure is also important. Sudden price increases in material or services can cause havoc with any business. It’s important to know if prices are tied to inflation, and how much notice will be given should steel prices rise. Additionally, it’s not a bad idea to ask steel vendors if they reduce prices to their customers should their price go down.

Does the steel supplier offer discounts on volume purchases? 

Steel vendors sometimes offer discounts for bulk buys. This can affect profits, so it’s a good idea to know in advance about such incentives.

When does the steel become the customer’s responsibility? 

It’s important when a supply of any material arrives to ensure that it’s in good condition, and this also applies to steel. Vendors should be asked whether there’s a certain grace period after receiving their product. It’s important to check contracts to allow at last three days to check an order prior to taking responsibility for it.

What traits should I look for in steel vendors? 

This final question can be applied to any vendor of products or services. It’s these traits that businesses working with steel vendors should look for:

Dependable Deliveries – The steel industry often needs to deal with tight deadlines. Steel vendors’ deliveries arrive when they should ease the burden on their customers. Make certain that a steel supplier has a history of timely deliveries.

Solid Customer Service – This trait goes beyond steel vendors, as excellent customer service should support any partnership with a supplier. Knowing that a vendor listens to issues and communicates honestly when seeking a solution to an issue is what any business wants from such a working relationship.

Receiving Undamaged Goods – With the toughness of steel, vendors might take less care than with more fragile alloys or metals. However, orders can still be damaged during transport to a point where the steel is unfit for application. If this happens, it can hamper efficiency and push back deadlines. A steel vendor’s shipping and packaging processes matter and orders must be delivered undamaged.

Regulatory Compliance & Quality Control – Though certain uses require higher quality steel, vendors should always ensure that the material they provide meets or exceeds the standards for which it’s required. Depending on the application, steels must comply with various regulations and standards.

Organizations like ASTM International help steel vendors classify, evaluate and specify the best steel type for an application based on its properties. For rolled steel used in the aerospace or auto manufacturing industries, this might entail certification from SAE International. Specifications regarding stainless steel used for structural purposes could include following ANSI/AISC 370-21 requirements.

Regarding defense contracts, DFARS compliance is necessary to protect the US defense industry from becoming too dependent on foreign steel vendors and materials. For steel vendors operating in the European Union, it may be necessary to comply with RoHS restrictions on materials used for electronic and electrical equipment containing certain toxic substances.

Sourcing Material Reliably – Often, raw materials go through multiple hands before reaching their end user, including products like steel. Vendors help facilitate this supply from steel manufacturers to distributors and end users. It’s a good idea to maintain good relations with steel vendors that have access to steel from multiple mills, ensuring they can always provide an adequate supply of materials.

If you have questions about steel that aren’t posed here, we invite you to ask the experts at Atlantic Stainless. 

If you are looking for more details, kindly visit Sponge Titanium for sale.