T-Top fabrication Aluminum vs. Stainless

Author Topic:   T-Top fabrication Aluminum vs. Stainless CHenry posted 01-11- 04:07 PM ET (US)         Considering replacing my bimini top with a custom made T-Top that would replicate the factory optional top that was available for my 18 Outrage.

Couple questions, I believe the factory top is/was aluminum, is that correct? Cost aside, what are the pro/cons of aluminum vs stainless for a T-Top.

For more information, please visit KINGYANG METAL.

TIA

Chris

Buckda posted 01-11- 04:09 PM ET (US)             Cost aside?
Weight. CHenry posted 01-11- 04:17 PM ET (US)             Weight, yeah that too, seems like aluminum is the way to go, can I keep it looking nice long term? Boat sits in salt water year round, I am meticulous with my care just don&#;t want something pitted, dull and ugly 3-5 years from now.

Do people do these things in stainless? Or is it 9 out 10 go aluminum? Did Whaler ever turn out a stainless T-Top structure or has it always been aluminum?

Bulldog posted 01-11- 04:24 PM ET (US)             Chris, stainless is only heavier if the tubing is the same thickness as the aluminum, the stainless tubing could be much thinner and still be strong. Stainless is a hard metal that doesn't like to flex a lot without cracking, but most swim ladders on boats are stainless. I think it is the cost of the stainless that gives the advantage to aluminum, I would contact several makers of t-tops and see what they say....jack highspeed_jd posted 01-11- 04:25 PM ET (US)             I would go with aluminum. Stainless is way heavier than aluminum. It would put a strain on your deck and develope cracks. Buckda posted 01-11- 04:30 PM ET (US)             There are several makers who will do it in Stainless Steel if that is what you want.

As stated earlier, it is more rigid, harder to work with (for them) and may develop cracks, especially on a smaller boat like a Whaler that runs through rough seas.

Price is likely the single biggest factor in why the vast majority are made from powdercoated or anodized aluminum.

The aluminum on my 18' Outrage was an original modification to the boat in . The boat is from the Houston area, so it saw a bit of sun, salt and heat, and the aluminum looked great. I don't think you should have a problem with it.

You will have more manufacturers to choose from if you go with an aluminum construction.

Keep in mind, though, that it's all about the quality of the raw materials, the welds and the strength of the tubing. I'd be sure to choose on those factors in relation to price, rather than on price alone.

Dave

CHenry posted 01-11- 04:38 PM ET (US)             thanks for the info (keep it coming), I have contacted a local fabricator based on the advice of my local Boston Whaler dealer. They work with aluminum and not stainless. I have a good stainless contact as well, but sounds like I'll be going aluminum.

The remarks regarding weight, strain on the deck, and flexibility of the structure (good aluminum, bad stainless) are really resonating with me.

Don88outrage posted 01-11- 05:07 PM ET (US)             Chris,
I'm kinda in the same boat (no pun, 88 18'Outrage), for years of fishing I've felt, as nice as the OEM bimini's are,
that they kind of defeat the functionality of a center console used as a fishing boat. I would definately go with aluminum. Only question I have is wether to mount it to the floor or on the console sides with back up plates inside. Buckda posted 01-11- 05:19 PM ET (US)             Don:
Floor, no question.

You have 12 wood screws holding your console to the deck. They are not through-bolted. You would be relying on those screws and the integrity of their grip on the plywood deck core to provide support to a top with much more windage than your console, in addition to the stresses already on the console.

My recommendation, having pulled the console on my 18' Outrage, and peered beneath the floor, is to either go with a Radar Arch that attaches to the gunwales, as I did; or to attach the T-Top to the deck of the boat, preferably via contact pads that are through-bolted to the floor, but barring that, using very substantial #12 or larger wood deck screws (sealed, of course) that penetrate the 1 inch deck and go into the molded portion of the hull underneath. If possible, I'd align this to anchor the wooden stringers that are on either side of the fuel tank. If you remove your console, you can find the alignment of these stringers by observing the six oversized screws (3 on either side) located under the console, that affix the deck to the boat. These are anchored into that wood stringer that I describe.

rtk posted 01-11- 09:08 PM ET (US)             T-Tops are typically attached to the floor and the console.

Dave is right on, find the areas of the floor that has good wood to attach the leg bases to.

If you use the boat in fairly rough or choppy water, I would go as far as using 3M sealant to bed the leg bases. Silicone sealant will allow the screws to work, and may result in water leaking into the screw holes, causing big rot problems in the future.

Rich

Jerry Townsend posted 01-11- 10:03 PM ET (US)             My choice would be stainless - stronger, more durable, more rigid - but costs a bit more and weighs a bit more. Both have to be welded using TIG or MIG. But, when I evaluate those things of importance - I rank them durability, weight and then cost.

The difference in weight is rather minor - say an aluminum T-top frame weighed 30 pounds - the stainless would weigh around 90 pounds. That extra 60 pounds will cost more to buy and to move (horsepower and fuel).

Regarding attachment - some install their T-tops by bolting to the console - which is bolted to the floor via maybe six wood screws - but I would guess that the manufacturer's decision to screw the console to the floor did not contemplate supporting a T-top. Therefore, bolt directly to the floor. The front support pads will be trying to lift off from the floor - loaded in tension - while the aft support pads will be pushing down - loaded in tension. Therefore, I suggest lifting the floor and providing good-sized back-up plates for cap screws.

Some time ago, I contemplated building a T-top for my 17 Outrage and contacted BW. I received a lot of information - including the recommendation to mount directly to the floor using back-up plates. I would guess that on your 18 Outrage, you have at least a 1" floor. --- Jerry/Idaho

timing posted 01-12- 11:57 PM ET (US)          I have a outrage21.
Was considering a prefab SS unit by cesmithco.
Appears to be any easy install for anyone handy.
Adjustable width config.
Not a large top / coverage.
Main support is 4 floor mounts.
Additional laterial support through various
bracket configs connecting to the console.
In emailing with the tech rep, weight is similar to alum.
Less flex then alum if installed properly.
Newest model has "foot" mount system that allows easy
pivoting /fold down for trailering / storage / take off.
They have 2 models, the larger one accomodates
doors for smaller walk in consoles.
http://www.cesmithco.com/product/ttop.htm
westcoastwhaler posted 01-13- 07:24 PM ET (US)             I have an 18' Outrage which I purchased 3 years ago. The boat came with a newly installed Anodized Aluminum T-Top.

http://photobucket.com/albums/f48/westcoastwhaler/

The T-Top is mounted to the floor with Four Legs and also to the center console (in front and on top). I run offshore (26 miles) to Catalina Island regularly in the summer and it has taken a beating but there have been no problems whatsoever. The thing is rock solid and it is great to have all of my electronics out of the way.

It takes alot of work to keep the Aluminum from getting pitted. I keep my boat completely covered in the saltwater year-round. I wipe the Aluminum down after every trip in the ocean and I still get corrosion. It is not too bad, but it bugs me to no end.

I hope this helps your decision. Good luck with whatever route you go with.

Bulldog posted 01-14- 07:02 AM ET (US)             Timing, I saw a C.E. Smith T-top at the local Cabela's seemd very well made...............Jack swist posted 01-16- 01:22 PM ET (US)             As someone said, stainless steel is much more brittle than aluminum and you can't get rid of its extra weight by using thinner stock - not in this application anyway.

Although raw aluminum is definitely attacked by saltwater, the various types of finishing processes (anodizing etc) have a big mitigating impact. I've had some aluminum do pretty well in a marine enviroment, and other not so well. You need to check into it.

Jerry Townsend posted 01-16- 02:21 PM ET (US)             Swist - careful - stainless steels are, in general, 3 to 5 times "stronger" than various aluminum alloys - and therefore, thinner stainless tubing can be used. Now, stainless is "around" 3 times heavier than aluminum - so, if one really wanted, a stainless T-top frame could be built that would weigh about the same as an aluminum T-top frame. Personally however, I would stay with normal stainless tubing sizes.

In my mind - a few added pounds giving better strength, durability and corrosion resistance is a good buy.

And yes, stainless is less ductile ("more brittle") than aluminum. Remember, strength and ductility are inversely dependent variables - higher ductility generally means lower strength ... and vice-versa. ---- Jerry/Idaho

Don88outrage posted 01-16- 04:17 PM ET (US)             After some good posts here and taking a look at that C.E. Smith SS T top I may have to retract the "I would definately go with aluminum" statement. The Smith top looks to be solidly engineered, would blend in good taste with an 18' Outrage, has swing down foot capability (really handy for getting under lower bridges and storage), and at a weight of 89 lbs. make it worth looking into. Actually if you remove a bimini, guessing around 30 lbs. you're looking at a 59 lb. increase amidship, a nit for an 18' outrage.
And the $.00 from Cabelas isn't too hard to handle for a decent T top....here we go, wait till she hears this one. Jerry Townsend posted 01-16- 09:03 PM ET (US)             And guys & gals - remember, as many know, there are many different alloys of stainless - some are corrosion resistant - others are not.

I looked over the C.E. Smith link that was referenced and their T-top looks pretty well built - on the surface. I haven't looked at it in detail - yet. The "fold-down" feature sounds interesting and would be beneficial also when trailering. And the price reported by Don is just plumb reasonable - with transportation basically paid - well picked up from a Cabela's.

One would still have the installation to contend with - and bolting to the floor with back-up plates might take the better part of a day. ---- Jerry/Idaho

elaelap posted 01-16- 09:49 PM ET (US)             "And the $.00 from Cabelas isn't too hard to handle for a decent T top....here we go, wait till she hears this one."

I didn't know you knew my wife, Don.

Tony

Bulldog posted 01-17- 10:40 AM ET (US)             When I said I saw the C. E. Smith T-top at Cabela's, I meant I really played around with it,It seemed very sturdy. I have a Revenge and I was looking at using some of the pieces that are able to be bought sepaerate to make a helm station, I was very inpressed and the fact that if there is some failure or accident , parts could be ordered to replace and the finish wouldn't have to be redone ...Jack MarineWelder posted 01-16- 01:33 PM ET (US)             Aluminum makes for a GREAT t-top it's hard, beautiful, durable, and light. It is however, not without it's shortfalls. Most (I hate to say all) fabricators will wash over the welds to make them look better. Anodizing is impossible to weld, you have to go through it and weld the base metal. Now the metal is contaminated, combined with washing over the weld itself, you now invite hydrogen cracking. Does it happen often? Yes. It is a necessary evil. Stainless steel also makes a great top. It's almost as hard, just as beautiful, more durable, but it is heavier. About 3 times heavier. Ductility is an issue, s/steel doesn't flex like aluminum. You also have a stronger weld, and when welded by a qualified welder,there is no worries about cracking that joint. Anodizing is a harder surface than S/steel, but if you scratch stainless, you can re-polish it and it will dissapear. Aluminum you can't. Cost is the big issue. An aluminum t-top is about 1/3 the cost of s/steel. With care a s/steel will last forever and look as good as the day you put it on. Aluminum will last on average 5-7 yrs before it really shows age. Both materials have pros and cons. Yiddil posted 01-19- 12:42 AM ET (US)             Dave (buckda) Can you send me some pics of what the arch looks like were its attached to your Outrage...You said Gunwalews....I never understoof how they attach and stay put show me the top and underneath so i can see how they get sturdy:) Thanks Dave....Always thinking about doing one on Das Boat:) TTopless posted 11-06- 02:26 PM ET (US)             Our stainless T-Tops are lighter and will last longer than aluminum T-Tops. Not only that - you don't have to drill through the floor of your BW to mount ours (and it folds down, or can be removed completely in minutes).

http://Stainless.RNR-Marine.com

face posted 11-06- 03:07 PM ET (US)             "If you use the boat in fairly rough or choppy water, I would go as far as using 3M sealant to bed the leg bases. Silicone sealant will allow the screws to work, and may result in water leaking into the screw holes, causing big rot problems in the future."

Screws can work loose even with 3M, they repeatedly did so on 30" plus seat pedestals I had in my Stamas 26. These seat pedestals put up with a lot of stress as will your t-top. That being said, 3M is the best way to go but check your screws a few times a year with heavy use. It would be far superior to through bolt to the deck and use backing plates. Much more labor though.

For best long-term aesthetics, durability and overall boat performance I would recommend an aluminum t-top that is POWDERCOATED white or desert tan. I guess your would be better matched with white...That's what a lot of the new offshore center consoles are going to. I can't think of any new manufacturers using stainless t-tops but I could be wrong.

Joe

TTopless posted 11-07- 05:09 PM ET (US)             Other after-market T-Tops usually mount with wood screws ... which don't hold ...

http://rnr-marine.com/No-Wood-Screws.shtml

The company is the world’s best Stainless Steel T Profile supplier. We are your one-stop shop for all needs. Our staff are highly-specialized and will help you find the product you need.

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Questions You Should Know about Aluminum Alloy Welding Wire
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The original poster posed his question in .

It was revived in and now again in late . If you have a question that is not answered in this thread, start a new topic.

TTopless posted 11-11- 11:05 AM ET (US)             But it is a vliad, informative discussion with many good points already made.

As MarineWelder pointed out, Anodized Aluminum tops are made from anodized aluminum pipe. When its welded, the anodizing is burned off, and there is no anodized surface in the welded area. He also pointed out that many mfgrs "wash" this are - usually with a silver paint, so it looks shiny. The anodizing is what provides protection from the elements (especially salt water), so the most critical areas of the top (the welds) are unprotected ... which leads to discoloration and corrosion.

MarineWelder also mentions how good Stainless welds are "when welded by a qualified welder". We took that a step further, and use a Swagelok Orbital TIG welder (just like NASA, Nuclear plants and food companies are required to use) to weld our tops now ...

TTopless posted 11-15- 09:33 PM ET (US)             Lazarus here - thought I'd show you our T-Top in action at 60mph in some chop ...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OJYPrGxKyeY

Jeff posted 11-15- 10:12 PM ET (US)             Gee, thanks for adding more spam to the site!

Let's call a Spade a Spade...A T-Top it is not...A framed folding bimini that attaches to the console GRAB RAILS instead of the gunwale it is.

I can not imagine the the Whaler console grab rails and their sanctions where ever meant to carry a load like that once, let alone for years of hard use.

A real T-Top should affixed to the console and floor if the console is not designed to carry the load of an integrated T-Top. The top should allow you to mount Antennas, Radar Domes, lights, electronic boxes and and outriggers to it. It needs to be something strongly affixed and rock solid so that you can wrench your grip down on and pull against when reaching over the side of the boat and not have it rack all over, be worried about it bending, or pulling your console grab rail stanchions and screws out.

TTopless posted 11-16- 10:36 AM ET (US)             "It needs to be something strongly affixed and rock solid so that you can wrench your grip down on and pull against when reaching over the side of the boat and not have it rack all over, be worried about it bending, or pulling your console grab rail stanchions and screws out."

Well, we hang onto ours ... no problem ...
http://rnr-marine.com/T-Topless.shtml#Hang
... and mount antennas & rod holders (which we troll with) on it (no radar or electronic boxes - they're heavy and probably wouldn't fold down easily).

We have dozens of Montauk clients who love it ... no more annoying bimini, and it fits in the garage.

Thanks!

TTopless posted 02-01- 03:43 PM ET (US)             Be careful mounting a big Aluminum T-Top to the floor ...

http://RNR-Marine.com/No-Wood-Screws.shtml

Jeff posted 02-01- 04:23 PM ET (US)             Why are you reviving this old thread? Another shameless plug for the folding Bimini? Buckda posted 02-01- 05:05 PM ET (US)             Lazarus! Come Forth! Russ 13 posted 02-01- 09:31 PM ET (US)             I have used a sturdy custom fabricated aluminum T-top in my boat for seven years of rough use. Great shade -
Zero problems - and it still looks great.
It is attached to both the floor & console.
The aluminum is strong, light & flexes just enough not to crack any welds or the gelcoat. deepwater posted 02-04- 08:55 PM ET (US)             Stainless is the way ,, Its forever and strong,,If your worried about a little weight leave the mother in law on the shore Tohsgib posted 02-05- 01:23 AM ET (US)             Go to a boat show and see exactly how many OEM t-tops are made from stainless....ZERO! Plus it looks REALLY stupid being all skinny and all. deepwater posted 02-05- 07:46 PM ET (US)             Than why are the rails all SS deepwater posted 02-06- 09:11 PM ET (US)             Jeff,,why do you think Ttopless is spamming ,,he has a good product that fits the topic Jeff posted 02-06- 11:23 PM ET (US)             Reviving old dead thread(s) just to make repeated sales pitches for your product....that's spamming

When the only postings you make in a community forum are advertisements for your product...that's spamming. 

When you go through a site and hijack as many members info from their profiles as you can to repeatedly fill their inbox with spam emails...well that's spamming too and just crappy business tactics.

If he/she was a member here who offered up real info and not just sales pitches, contributed to the community through valuable postings on multiple topics and actually advertised correctly...the sentiment may be different.

Are you making you endorsement of this product as an actual owner?  If so start a thread about it, I am sure others would be interested in hearing first hand experiences.  

deepwater posted 02-07- 03:15 AM ET (US)             Yep that would be spamming,,Ill look back and check out some of his other posts and see how out of line he was,,Thanks TTopless posted 04-25- 10:48 PM ET (US)             How much storage space do you have on a Montauk 17 or 170? Not much.

Our customer are very happy with our new Gear Loft!
http://rnr-marine.com/Montauk-T-Topless.shtml#Gear-Loft

Its holds 4 or 5 standard life preservers - and frees up the Montauk's tiny console storage for other items like fishing gear!

Thanks, Captain Ross

weekendwarrior posted 04-26- 08:05 AM ET (US)             In my personal experience, in salt water aluminum will eventually corrode and good stainless will last longer, from a corrosion point of view. Jeff posted 04-26- 09:21 AM ET (US)             Only seems fitting that this thread should rise again around easter time. No miracle here though, just shameless promotion. Waterwonderland posted 04-26- 10:29 AM ET (US)             The commercial message was brought to you by TTopless.

Stay tuned for further messages.

Again and again.

Year after year.

TTopless posted 04-26- 01:12 PM ET (US)             Well ... it is a great product - made especially for the Montauk 17 & 170.

It provides a lot of room, good coverage, ability to fish around it, improved ingress/egress over the factory Bimini. mounts without drilling holes in your sealed Montauk floor and the ability to fold the top down to fit your Montauk in the garage or under a boat cover. The new Gear Loft solves another Montauk problem - storage, with the ability to hold 4 or 5 PFDs.

Shameless? Yes - we are certainly not ashamed of this product - and our customers love it!

Thanks for the input!

dscew posted 04-26- 08:29 PM ET (US)          I wonder how it would hold up in a stiff cross wind or flat out on plane. Not a bad idea if it's strong enough. TTopless posted 04-27- 06:01 AM ET (US)             DSCEW,

Since you asked,

T-Topless Trailering On Highway @ 65mph:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m8-_6S18ahY

T-Topless at 60mph on the Water:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OJYPrGxKyeY

We use ours 100% of the time (since ), including trips to the Nearshore Reefs, 5 miles offshore in the Atlantic.

divtruk posted 04-27- 12:29 PM ET (US)             Is there anyone on here that has the T-Topless that can give a review besides TTopless? fishinchips posted 01-08- 08:36 PM ET (US)             good debate regarding stainless versus aluminum for t-top.
I just got a 190 montauk, after many years with a 17 and then a 170. Thinking about a t-top for the 190.

This is my experience with aluminum. I own a 22' hydra-sports wa. It has a hardtop on her. I purchased her back in . Went through two outboards already. So I do fish her alot. From new till now, the aluminum hardtop has broke at the joints three times. Factory hardtop.

My friend which has a 22' Grady White also had his welds broke. Factory hardtop.

A friend with a 21 outrage about vintage had a custom t-top done that was powder coated. It did break too.

A friend with a 25 seacat (catamaran) which had a custom t-top done in stainless did break also at the weld.

So, it doesn't make any difference to me if its aluminum or stainless. Just that it was a pain in behind to get it rewelded.

Now I noticed that smith and taco has t-tops that are user installed. Parts seems relatively to come by. Part breaks, just get a new part.... Something to think about.

Ken

For more information, please visit Water Ripple Stainless Steel Sheet.